mps
08-18 06:46 PM
he should be thankful to Indian Embassy... just imagine what would have happened to him if he was from a country west of India :-)
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eb2_mumbai
09-15 08:21 AM
Dude, we need to take into account the thousands of EB3 I -> EB2 I conversions :(
Its not as easy as you make it sound. If a person starts today for a new EB2 labor it will take least 1.5 years to get new I 140 approved. This is without any RFE at either stage. Considering today's environment where even simple H1 transfer has become a challenge it takes a really brave person to be playing with fire. Most consulting companies are not enthusiasitc about filing labors and fulltime companies have already said that they are getting too many responses to job advertisement so labor cannot be filed.
Add to that it takes least $7000 to file both labor and 140 in terms of expenses.
Its not as easy as you make it sound. If a person starts today for a new EB2 labor it will take least 1.5 years to get new I 140 approved. This is without any RFE at either stage. Considering today's environment where even simple H1 transfer has become a challenge it takes a really brave person to be playing with fire. Most consulting companies are not enthusiasitc about filing labors and fulltime companies have already said that they are getting too many responses to job advertisement so labor cannot be filed.
Add to that it takes least $7000 to file both labor and 140 in terms of expenses.
whoever
02-14 01:11 PM
what are cir timelines. it seems march 15th is lobby day. i read from aila.org recent postings.
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sk2006
03-31 10:11 PM
Why don't you guys go to some 'INDIAN_POLITICAL_VOICE.ORG' forum?
This is immigration form and people from all over the world are the members.
Don't spam them.
Moderators, please delete this thread.
This is immigration form and people from all over the world are the members.
Don't spam them.
Moderators, please delete this thread.
more...
saimrathi
07-11 11:33 AM
Very well written...
The criticisms of this website are LAUGHABLE. The Economist's quality of life index has rated Canada and Australia the top countries on earth to live in, overwhelming, year after year after year after year!
Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Melbourne, Sydney and Perth consistently dominate the top 10 cities in the world to live. 6 of th top 10?
The index takes into account, cost of living, earnings capacity, safety, etc.
Canada probably has one of the most rosey futures on earth. It has an abundance of resources, a tiny population and ironically, global warming is adding to its opportunities.
Cost of living is actually far below that in places like NY and California.
Health care, while not top notch, provides better care to more people than is likely to be found in places like the US. PARTICULARLY for people that are older and more likely to need it.
Education is infinitely better. US Public schools are atrocious.
Yes, taxes are higher. How do you think these things are paid for?
As for the weather, well duh! :)
Anyway, both countries have advantages. I love the U.S. and that's why I'm here. But don't let an inarticulate and unfounded set of ridiculous statements turn you off. do you own research!
The criticisms of this website are LAUGHABLE. The Economist's quality of life index has rated Canada and Australia the top countries on earth to live in, overwhelming, year after year after year after year!
Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Melbourne, Sydney and Perth consistently dominate the top 10 cities in the world to live. 6 of th top 10?
The index takes into account, cost of living, earnings capacity, safety, etc.
Canada probably has one of the most rosey futures on earth. It has an abundance of resources, a tiny population and ironically, global warming is adding to its opportunities.
Cost of living is actually far below that in places like NY and California.
Health care, while not top notch, provides better care to more people than is likely to be found in places like the US. PARTICULARLY for people that are older and more likely to need it.
Education is infinitely better. US Public schools are atrocious.
Yes, taxes are higher. How do you think these things are paid for?
As for the weather, well duh! :)
Anyway, both countries have advantages. I love the U.S. and that's why I'm here. But don't let an inarticulate and unfounded set of ridiculous statements turn you off. do you own research!
peer123
02-04 08:36 AM
:(
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sodh
01-24 12:23 AM
I wish they put him in a cell where his mates are, do I have to elaborate, the moderator will delete my post.
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mailmy_gc
07-29 05:39 PM
Guys,
I live in a place, Where we can find very few Indians. Out of 1500 units of apartments we are the only Indian family used to live in.
One fine day (of course relaized that was worst day) My kid is playing at the play ground and I saw one Indian couple was walking towards the ground. I was so excited (offcourse later exploited) that atleat my will get some company. He spoke to me nice and I introduced my wife. I gave my phone number ...
After 3 -4 days I got a call !!!! He said, one of his friend (big shot) is retiring this evening, if you guys can join, The Saga continued ..
We all went then I relaized that it is Quix !! I couldn't get rid of them for 3,4 months (Offcourse I am new to US that time). But atlast we told them we can not do ... Even after that he used to call us for atleast do this ... you don't need to do any thing we all take care of it.etc.
While I am reading this thread, I am laughing myself alot and I read almost all the replies. Offcourse I don't think some of our friends are writing that some quix guys may read this threading and upset about it.
Common even my wife and myself had fight about these guys and I was so upset for days and every time we meet I was so embarasssed to say "No".
if you get chance read this book for How to say No in a polished way -" Power Phrases by Meril Reunion"
I live in a place, Where we can find very few Indians. Out of 1500 units of apartments we are the only Indian family used to live in.
One fine day (of course relaized that was worst day) My kid is playing at the play ground and I saw one Indian couple was walking towards the ground. I was so excited (offcourse later exploited) that atleat my will get some company. He spoke to me nice and I introduced my wife. I gave my phone number ...
After 3 -4 days I got a call !!!! He said, one of his friend (big shot) is retiring this evening, if you guys can join, The Saga continued ..
We all went then I relaized that it is Quix !! I couldn't get rid of them for 3,4 months (Offcourse I am new to US that time). But atlast we told them we can not do ... Even after that he used to call us for atleast do this ... you don't need to do any thing we all take care of it.etc.
While I am reading this thread, I am laughing myself alot and I read almost all the replies. Offcourse I don't think some of our friends are writing that some quix guys may read this threading and upset about it.
Common even my wife and myself had fight about these guys and I was so upset for days and every time we meet I was so embarasssed to say "No".
if you get chance read this book for How to say No in a polished way -" Power Phrases by Meril Reunion"
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PBECVictim
06-27 10:52 AM
If Dept of State finds by mid of the month all(not by country) EB3 or EB2 numbers consumed, then they may come back and say no more acceptance of particular category. But generally they don't want to do that for EB category applications, because it is difficult for them to evaluate, reason is some numbers from Family category will be transfered to EB categories.
It happened for EB2 India, in the month of July 2006 mid. All numbers for EB2 India were utilized before mid of July, but even then they didn't come back in the mid of the month. So they made it "U" in next bulletin.
Don't be panic...........
It happened for EB2 India, in the month of July 2006 mid. All numbers for EB2 India were utilized before mid of July, but even then they didn't come back in the mid of the month. So they made it "U" in next bulletin.
Don't be panic...........
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tammman
09-23 09:18 PM
I think its worth giving it a short, I support this.
more...
VivekAhuja
09-29 02:07 PM
First of all for presuming that highly skilled immigrants who are waiting for GC are the only ones who can buy a house. Even 10 illegal aliens can come together and buy a house and share the mortgage.
Then, the economy is in it's cycle, it will pick up without more house buying. The issue is banks not lending to BUSINESSES not mortgages.
Most imporant, the proposal is same as saying "Sell me a GC". Ya, sure, that will pass the House and Senate.
Remember, nothing stops you from buying a house right now!!
Then, the economy is in it's cycle, it will pick up without more house buying. The issue is banks not lending to BUSINESSES not mortgages.
Most imporant, the proposal is same as saying "Sell me a GC". Ya, sure, that will pass the House and Senate.
Remember, nothing stops you from buying a house right now!!
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indiancitizen77
08-27 11:44 PM
Our frustration with the US legal immigration and retrogression seems endless. My wife and I are considering immigration prospects to Canada. Can somebody please suggest good responsive lawfirms that could handle a Canadian PR application? We would also appreciate some insight on Canadian immigration prospects for physicians. Thanks
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bayarea07
07-28 10:37 AM
Good and Fair Thoughts,agree with you.
I was an 'IBO' in the past. did the business for 2 years and quit. so, i am one of those "quitters" as called by up-lines and one of the many reasons why the average monthly income is only $115/year :)
you people are fighting for two totally different reasons
(1) is Amway business illegal for H1Bs? and is Amway business model a ponzi scheme ? been with this business, I can still stand behind the business model - its fair and simple. you just buy from one manufacturer and advertise that to others. if you notice, they are actually advertising Amway Global on national TV. Are the products worth the money you pay is a different subject. can H1Bs do this, i hear yes/no from various sources and that is a separate subject too. this thread is about the bitter experiences and not the business model itself.
(2) Now came BWW (for those of you don't know this term, this is the reason for all your heartaches / broken friendships and bitter experiences).
how do you advertise your product/site ?????
when i joined the business, I have atleast 10 very good friends. I talked to all of them and asked them to understand the business model, and not worry about the advertising part. I took all of them to major conferences (they couldn't say no to me out of friendship and curiosity on what i saw in it despite horror stories) but no one was keen at that time. so, i told them to come and see me when they have some free time and are thinking about making money part-time. no hurry. thats it. no clashes between friends or bad blood. no means no. they are your friends and they will come to you when they are looking. NO HURRY.. thats me.
this is the point where problems start. BWW talks and teaches about doing it NOW. they want us to go through as many people as possible and believe in numbers game. if you show the plan to 100 people, 1 active IBO will join. so, show the plan 3 times a week at-least. that's the motto. when they asked me to go for cold contacting i refused out-right. how can i convince a total stranger when my close friends who believe in me couldn't see it.
most of you are crying foul of people "cold" contacting you with fake smile/friendship while they want you to join the business. but everything has to do with BWW and their methods/CDs/meetings etc. its like a competition. the sooner you grow, they grow. so, they want you to grow as fast as possible. if you have to loose your friends/relatives on the way - your up-lines don't care. they say they are your friends/family. how can that be true ??
to Kushal: I wish you luck with your business. but you have some temper my friend. who are you fighting with ?? folks on an online forum ?? you should know better than to throw stones at someone who doesn't have a name. what are you thinking.. you think you can convince everyone here to believe Amway/quixstar is good ???? seriously ?? only if convincing is that easy ;p
to rest of the team: I know you don't approve the advertising part by randomly meeting people. I didn't do it either and extensive damage is done. people run away from Amway/quixstar like plague because some people want to get rich quick and asked their down-lines to spread the word as fast as they can. "run through people". find 1 person willing to work at the expense of 99 people getting offended by you. word of mouth advertising works both ways. bad publicity spreads faster :)
all I am saying is: people advertised Amway really bad. people hate amway but they should really be mad at BWW and their strategies. it is unfortunate that no one really knows or interested to know what Amway model really is. all they can think of is about horrible experiences of cold contacting and repeated chasing.
again, i am not with this business now but still think its a good model. it is based on word of mouth advertising, franchising, residual income - everything e-commerce (which is a subject taught at some universities). now add some short sighted people to do the teaching and BINGO.. screwed it up big time.
I was an 'IBO' in the past. did the business for 2 years and quit. so, i am one of those "quitters" as called by up-lines and one of the many reasons why the average monthly income is only $115/year :)
you people are fighting for two totally different reasons
(1) is Amway business illegal for H1Bs? and is Amway business model a ponzi scheme ? been with this business, I can still stand behind the business model - its fair and simple. you just buy from one manufacturer and advertise that to others. if you notice, they are actually advertising Amway Global on national TV. Are the products worth the money you pay is a different subject. can H1Bs do this, i hear yes/no from various sources and that is a separate subject too. this thread is about the bitter experiences and not the business model itself.
(2) Now came BWW (for those of you don't know this term, this is the reason for all your heartaches / broken friendships and bitter experiences).
how do you advertise your product/site ?????
when i joined the business, I have atleast 10 very good friends. I talked to all of them and asked them to understand the business model, and not worry about the advertising part. I took all of them to major conferences (they couldn't say no to me out of friendship and curiosity on what i saw in it despite horror stories) but no one was keen at that time. so, i told them to come and see me when they have some free time and are thinking about making money part-time. no hurry. thats it. no clashes between friends or bad blood. no means no. they are your friends and they will come to you when they are looking. NO HURRY.. thats me.
this is the point where problems start. BWW talks and teaches about doing it NOW. they want us to go through as many people as possible and believe in numbers game. if you show the plan to 100 people, 1 active IBO will join. so, show the plan 3 times a week at-least. that's the motto. when they asked me to go for cold contacting i refused out-right. how can i convince a total stranger when my close friends who believe in me couldn't see it.
most of you are crying foul of people "cold" contacting you with fake smile/friendship while they want you to join the business. but everything has to do with BWW and their methods/CDs/meetings etc. its like a competition. the sooner you grow, they grow. so, they want you to grow as fast as possible. if you have to loose your friends/relatives on the way - your up-lines don't care. they say they are your friends/family. how can that be true ??
to Kushal: I wish you luck with your business. but you have some temper my friend. who are you fighting with ?? folks on an online forum ?? you should know better than to throw stones at someone who doesn't have a name. what are you thinking.. you think you can convince everyone here to believe Amway/quixstar is good ???? seriously ?? only if convincing is that easy ;p
to rest of the team: I know you don't approve the advertising part by randomly meeting people. I didn't do it either and extensive damage is done. people run away from Amway/quixstar like plague because some people want to get rich quick and asked their down-lines to spread the word as fast as they can. "run through people". find 1 person willing to work at the expense of 99 people getting offended by you. word of mouth advertising works both ways. bad publicity spreads faster :)
all I am saying is: people advertised Amway really bad. people hate amway but they should really be mad at BWW and their strategies. it is unfortunate that no one really knows or interested to know what Amway model really is. all they can think of is about horrible experiences of cold contacting and repeated chasing.
again, i am not with this business now but still think its a good model. it is based on word of mouth advertising, franchising, residual income - everything e-commerce (which is a subject taught at some universities). now add some short sighted people to do the teaching and BINGO.. screwed it up big time.
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Legal
07-21 05:42 PM
Does this mean there are not enough approvable applications. Doesnt sound right to me with 5 years of minimum retrogression and upto 20 years in case of Philippines for FB category 4.
Still doesnt make much sense to my how even with USCIS ineffeicienes should there be a spillover.
Once again, there are 2 restrictions in FB immigration-per country and per category. There may be 15 million Indian citizens waiting for 15 years under the siblings category, it doesn't matter. Once they reach their numeric quota they are done. That's why the numbers and waiting time keep growing.
Still doesnt make much sense to my how even with USCIS ineffeicienes should there be a spillover.
Once again, there are 2 restrictions in FB immigration-per country and per category. There may be 15 million Indian citizens waiting for 15 years under the siblings category, it doesn't matter. Once they reach their numeric quota they are done. That's why the numbers and waiting time keep growing.
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Macaca
07-04 10:42 AM
I am developing a general framework in which you can plug in your own traumatic experience. The following is a good start. Please develop your own writeups.
From then on it was a scramble to fulfill a long list of requirements to be able to apply on time. The first task was for my husband to convince his HR to sponsor the process. Since they had already budgeted for the fiscal year and are on a spending freeze , it took a lot of convincing . The HR complied and gratefully we set out to get our Medical exams (at own cost of 150*2).Since we live in a small state with few doctors we drove 2 hours to a neighboring state to get them on time.
Being a mother of 3 small kids, I could not work on important paper works with them around. So after putting them to bed we spent the entire night pulling out the required documents from archives and placing them in order; numerous phone calls to parents back in India to collect their date of birth, place of birth information and completed the questionnaire.
Got passport pictures(60$) and mailed it all to our lawyers praying it will be one of the first to reach the department office on start of business on July 2nd.
The following are very good points that need more polish! The main point here is that we really can not understand this CRAP wih all other things in life which Americans are not facing!
We are raising families here, our everyday life is no different from any other AMERICAN middle class family with same expectations and hopes, so its not easy to presume that we can pull out or get out of this situation and return to our home countries.
Patience is not just a virtue but a way of life for thousands of Legal immigrants who have been living in the US for a number of years . Besides the everyday stress of Job,Mortgage,Health and education of their children they live with the added suspense of when their application for permanent residency ,commonly referred as "Green card" will move ahead from its deep slumber.
From then on it was a scramble to fulfill a long list of requirements to be able to apply on time. The first task was for my husband to convince his HR to sponsor the process. Since they had already budgeted for the fiscal year and are on a spending freeze , it took a lot of convincing . The HR complied and gratefully we set out to get our Medical exams (at own cost of 150*2).Since we live in a small state with few doctors we drove 2 hours to a neighboring state to get them on time.
Being a mother of 3 small kids, I could not work on important paper works with them around. So after putting them to bed we spent the entire night pulling out the required documents from archives and placing them in order; numerous phone calls to parents back in India to collect their date of birth, place of birth information and completed the questionnaire.
Got passport pictures(60$) and mailed it all to our lawyers praying it will be one of the first to reach the department office on start of business on July 2nd.
The following are very good points that need more polish! The main point here is that we really can not understand this CRAP wih all other things in life which Americans are not facing!
We are raising families here, our everyday life is no different from any other AMERICAN middle class family with same expectations and hopes, so its not easy to presume that we can pull out or get out of this situation and return to our home countries.
Patience is not just a virtue but a way of life for thousands of Legal immigrants who have been living in the US for a number of years . Besides the everyday stress of Job,Mortgage,Health and education of their children they live with the added suspense of when their application for permanent residency ,commonly referred as "Green card" will move ahead from its deep slumber.
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msp1976
02-13 04:04 PM
This is why I mean USCIS/DOS was lazy. If there is total visas for the year (hypothetical 160,000). then only 40,000 are available by quarter. If there is 50,000 applications in the que then there is retrogression. Remember if there is more demand then what can be approved by quarter then retrogression.
So what this means is that if there is 400,000 approved I-140's but only 300,000 greencards then 7% limit would apply because there are more people in the que then what can be approved by quarter. Therefore, ROW people would still be able to file throughout the year and then whatever is left in the fourth quarter that ROW hasn't used then it would spillover. Therefore, it would still give ROW people to continue filing and taking the visas while the 7% countires have to sit and wait for breadcrumbs until the fourth quarter.
In the first three quarter the 'heavy' countries(India/China) would get numbers until the 7% caps hits and in the fourth quarter they would get the big chunck...
If the law contains a 'continous recapture' provision( anything not used this year get recaptured again immediately for next year...) then it would not be long befor e all categories become current....By the way 'continous recapture' is one of the IV goals...
Pl. Correct me if I am wrong....
Now I have really started to appreciate the IV goals listed on the front page.....
IV core team have gone through all this junk long before we got started and the goals take care of every point raised until now....
So what this means is that if there is 400,000 approved I-140's but only 300,000 greencards then 7% limit would apply because there are more people in the que then what can be approved by quarter. Therefore, ROW people would still be able to file throughout the year and then whatever is left in the fourth quarter that ROW hasn't used then it would spillover. Therefore, it would still give ROW people to continue filing and taking the visas while the 7% countires have to sit and wait for breadcrumbs until the fourth quarter.
In the first three quarter the 'heavy' countries(India/China) would get numbers until the 7% caps hits and in the fourth quarter they would get the big chunck...
If the law contains a 'continous recapture' provision( anything not used this year get recaptured again immediately for next year...) then it would not be long befor e all categories become current....By the way 'continous recapture' is one of the IV goals...
Pl. Correct me if I am wrong....
Now I have really started to appreciate the IV goals listed on the front page.....
IV core team have gone through all this junk long before we got started and the goals take care of every point raised until now....
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cps060
04-04 08:39 AM
What are your options if the Canadian PR expires (go to CA get PR and come back to US) and you are still in the US ? OR say you are in your 4th/5th year of CA PR and then you then desire to go to CA, can you re-apply for the Canadian PR ? If you can, what is the procedure .... ?
Anyone who know abt this, please respond.
Anyone who know abt this, please respond.
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fairman
08-17 11:01 AM
The VIP culture and the sense of entitlement in India is sickening :mad: I would understand if George Fernandes had raised a fuss since he was travelling as a diplomat, but SRK is pure dung!! FFS, he is there only to promote his movie - like some one mentioned here, the world doesnt come to an end if he is delayed by an hour or if the movie flops or doesnt even see the light of day.
SRK is a god in North India. This cannot be done to SRK. President Obama should have
come to airport and intervened .
SRK is a god in North India. This cannot be done to SRK. President Obama should have
come to airport and intervened .
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rajesh_kamisetty
07-11 11:54 AM
Agree.
Very well written...
Very well written...
Macaca
07-04 08:23 AM
U.S. Withdraws Offer of 60,000 Job-Based Visas, Angering Immigration Lawyers By JULIA PRESTON (http://www.nytimes.com/gst/emailus.html) New York Times, July 4, 2007
Immigration lawyers raised unusually irate protests yesterday after the State Department and the immigration service abruptly withdrew tens of thousands of job-based visas they had offered last month to foreign professionals hoping to become permanent residents in the United States.
The outcry was provoked by a terse announcement on Monday in which the State Department said it would not grant any more visas for the 2007 fiscal year to foreigners applying to become permanent residents based on their job skills. That notice reversed one the department had issued on June 13 announcing a two-month window starting July 2 for aspiring, high-skilled immigrants from around the world to present applications for visas known as green cards.
The State Department said the 60,000 visas it had expected to offer would no longer be available because of “sudden backlog reduction efforts” by Citizenship and Immigration Services, the federal agency that processes applications for the visas offered by the department.
In a statement yesterday, the American Immigration Lawyers Association accused the two agencies of perpetrating a “hoax” and a “bait and switch” against hopeful legal immigrants who played by the book.
“Here people followed the rules and did everything right, yet without warning or explanation the door was slammed in their faces,” said Kathleen Campbell Walker, the president of the association.
To apply, immigrants must undergo medical examinations and assemble documents to prove their job skills and show that a United States employer has sponsored them. Foreigners must be in the United States when they present their applications, which are processed on a first-come, first-served basis.
Because of backlogs for employment-based visas, foreigners have had to wait many years just to be allowed to file their applications.
Thousands of medical and technology professionals, including many working here on temporary visas, scrambled for weeks to get their documents together, in some cases canceling travel plans, in order to file their applications on Monday, the first day of the window. The State Department and the immigration agency closed the window without accepting a single application.
“I am concerned that such action may violate the law and could threaten the integrity of our immigration system,” Representative Zoe Lofgren, Democrat of California who is chairwoman of the House Judiciary subcommittee on immigration, wrote in letters yesterday to Michael Chertoff, the secretary of homeland security, and Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state. Ms. Lofgren warned that the federal government could face costly litigation because of its change of course.
The State Department said it would begin accepting applications on Oct. 1 for 2008 visas. On July 30, the immigration agency will raise its processing fees by an average of 66 percent.
Immigration lawyers raised unusually irate protests yesterday after the State Department and the immigration service abruptly withdrew tens of thousands of job-based visas they had offered last month to foreign professionals hoping to become permanent residents in the United States.
The outcry was provoked by a terse announcement on Monday in which the State Department said it would not grant any more visas for the 2007 fiscal year to foreigners applying to become permanent residents based on their job skills. That notice reversed one the department had issued on June 13 announcing a two-month window starting July 2 for aspiring, high-skilled immigrants from around the world to present applications for visas known as green cards.
The State Department said the 60,000 visas it had expected to offer would no longer be available because of “sudden backlog reduction efforts” by Citizenship and Immigration Services, the federal agency that processes applications for the visas offered by the department.
In a statement yesterday, the American Immigration Lawyers Association accused the two agencies of perpetrating a “hoax” and a “bait and switch” against hopeful legal immigrants who played by the book.
“Here people followed the rules and did everything right, yet without warning or explanation the door was slammed in their faces,” said Kathleen Campbell Walker, the president of the association.
To apply, immigrants must undergo medical examinations and assemble documents to prove their job skills and show that a United States employer has sponsored them. Foreigners must be in the United States when they present their applications, which are processed on a first-come, first-served basis.
Because of backlogs for employment-based visas, foreigners have had to wait many years just to be allowed to file their applications.
Thousands of medical and technology professionals, including many working here on temporary visas, scrambled for weeks to get their documents together, in some cases canceling travel plans, in order to file their applications on Monday, the first day of the window. The State Department and the immigration agency closed the window without accepting a single application.
“I am concerned that such action may violate the law and could threaten the integrity of our immigration system,” Representative Zoe Lofgren, Democrat of California who is chairwoman of the House Judiciary subcommittee on immigration, wrote in letters yesterday to Michael Chertoff, the secretary of homeland security, and Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state. Ms. Lofgren warned that the federal government could face costly litigation because of its change of course.
The State Department said it would begin accepting applications on Oct. 1 for 2008 visas. On July 30, the immigration agency will raise its processing fees by an average of 66 percent.
chintanop
07-04 03:27 AM
Thanks for your diggs. If you go and check the Upcoming stories tab - it has made it to the top in "Hot in All Topics" list...
keep digging....
dugg all 3 too
keep digging....
dugg all 3 too
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